Christian Rapper And Atheist Comedian Debate Jesus (Ruslan & Rufat Agayev)


– So my question is, where
where are you with Jesus? Like, Jesus being a historical figure, Jesus being someone that
is documented by both Christians and secular scholars. And, I view my faith
through the lens of Jesus. So like, I believe in
the historical person and a historical event and then I reverse engineer
everything after that, you know what I’m saying? Through that lens. So like, was Jesus a real person? – He could be if he wants to, yeah. – No no no like historically. Like, this is a historical question. – I mean, there’s accounts that somebody named Jesus existed. – And did some cool stuff, and did some miracles and stuff like that. – No, no miracles. – No there’s historical
accounts from secular scholars that he did miracles. – Ok. I mean yeah the- – So, there was a man named
Jesus who did miracles- – (Laughing) There was not- – Who was crucified by Romans, because they thought that he was trying to overthrow
their empire. And then- – Yeah, there’s also witches that were crucified in, what is it? Salem,
because, you know, cause– – I’ve been there. – I don’t know, they were acting weird
because they were Goth. – Okay. Not the same though. Not the same. – So like, they weren’t doing
miracles. Neither was Jesus. – The difference with Jesus is that, There was dissent amongst that community because of the stuff that he was saying, because of the stuff he was doing, because of how radical he was, and pushing back against
the Pharisees, right? And pushing back against the
religious leaders of the time. And then the historical
event that like, yo, his body, can’t be found. And we believe that he rose from the dead. Like we believe that resurrection is a literal event based on the 500
I witness accounts, based on- – The 500- Where are these 500 eyewitness bro? – It’s in the Scriptures! It says there was 500 eyewitnesses. He was around for 40
days, and listen no no no- – The scriptures say a lot of things. – Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point.
Let me finish my point. And we’ve never seen any
other religious leader have this much of an impact
with 2000 years later, we’re still worshipping him. We’re still believing he exists. – Muhammad? The fastest growing
religion on earth right now? – Not the same. Not the same at all, because Muhammad never claimed to be God. Muhammad never did miracles. Muhammad never did- – I understand that, but
he rode on a magic carpet. – Well I don’t- – And, people walk around
at black rock in Mecca. And like, they really believe in that. – Yeah, they believe him as a prophet. They don’t believe him as God. – No, I understand that- – They believe– we believe Jesus is God. – I mean, there are some
people that take Jesus’ account and they don’t believe
him believe him to be God. There’s Jehovah witnesses
don’t think he’s God. – And they’re wrong. – (Sighs) See again, but this is
your belief about it. – But this is my belief in
a linear and logical sense. – Do you know what this turns into? – What is that? – This turns to Shannon and Skip Bayless in the morning, and instead of us arguing
about LeBron, it’s Jesus. – Ok. – And where is it we think he fits in a canon historical figures, and- – And he’s at the top though. He’s at the top. – It’s goofy. Oh yeah, through, you know, The Roman empire, through- – That was 400 years after
though the resurrection. – No I understand. – You were saying, so you had a bunch of- – Through the church ganglion. – Average dudes, through- – The Roman Catholicism- – Who were not the smartest
or the sharpest dudes- – Yeah, I’ve heard this- – That went on to trans
radically transform history. Do you know what I’m saying? – Not always in good ways. – We’re talking about the early church. I’m not talking about Constantine, I’m not talking about all those- – What part of history did they transform in those early days? – Their environment, those circles, the community that they’d built- – Uh huh. – The way the gospel was then spread to the known world at that time, it spread all the way to Ethiopia. – Yeah. – Ethiopia was the first
nation to establish- – It’s not like they invented a wheel. It’s not like they came
up with the iPhone. – I mean, but they did invent- – It’s just Jesus. – Yeah, but Jesus was the catalyst moment, that resurrection transformed everything and now you have the biggest spread. And not only that, but you have all these dudes
that went on to be martyred and die horrible horrific
deaths for something that they would have had
to have known was a lie. – I want to know why- – No no, answer that though. They would’ve all had
to collectively agree and know in Jesus didn’t rise, including his own brother had to know that Jesus
didn’t rise, and then died. – Bro, there’s kids strapping
themselves with bombs. – Yeah, but the difference is
those kids are being deceived, and they’re being manipulated, and they don’t know that what
they’re dying for is a lie. These people would’ve all had
to know that without a doubt, this dude was not the son of God, that they tricked his body and buries it, and hid his body, and then all
go on to die horrible deaths when they could’ve been just like, “Hey, this is what happened, this is where all the bones are at. We finessed y’all. Don’t kill me I’m not trying
to get crucified upside down, I’m not trying to get beheaded.” – I just- Those aren’t facts. Those are just- – Those are facts! – No no no no, what I’m trying to say is- – Paul was a real person. – Hold on, hold on. – Peter was a real person. these are facts. – I’m not saying that
they weren’t real people, I am saying just, those aren’t facts for a personal God of that hears
your prayers and answers them, nor does that make Christians true. All that is, is just you connecting dots to fit your belief system, and to rationalize it
to make it more logical. When you could just- – I don’t think it’s that simple. – Were the most logical
thing you can possibly think, I think is kind of like what I think, is like miracles aren’t real, I haven’t seen a good thing
happened to me in my life once. Nah. (both laugh) – Dang, bro! – No no no, but like,
miracles aren’t real, we got to take care of
each other as people. The only way we’ll ever
advance as a people, is through science, education, knowledge. The more we open ourselves
up to learning, receiving, and trying to fix things, that’s the only way will get better. None of that other stuff- – What about love bro? What about love? – That is love. – What about empathy? What about kindness? What about compassion? – I agree. – What about all these things that Jesus was the biggest proponent for? – You think those are new things that nobody has ever thought about? – I think Jesus- – Eastern religions had
these things far, far- – Ok. They had some of those things, but the way Jesus erased the racial divide between the Jews and the Samaritans, the way Jesus empowered
women, the way Jesus, like he did so many radical things that were so contrary to culture, that was so in the face for religion. And, again this is a guy running
around claiming to be God. This is why they crucified him. He claimed to be God, and then
he said I’m gonna come back, and then he came back, and
was around for 40 days. – Then he said he’s
going to come back again. – He’s coming! (Sighs) – How crazy would it be if he came back and he had the footage
of me like, “Ah, nah.” (both laugh) – What if he came back right now? What if he knocked on your
door and there was Jesus? (laughing) No but, but look. I think that this is where- You make some great points,
and I’ll just be like, “Man, some good points,” I think? I think? Because I struggle with a
lot of that stuff no no no, you’re laughing but like,
we’ve had these conversations, like I struggle with a lot
of the passages you bring up. I struggle with a lot of those
things in the Scriptures, but again, my faith is just very simple. Like I sincerely, truly
believe that, based on history, based on just logic of did those people, and based on my own experience- – These are arguments I’ve
heard in my whole life. – I know! That’s why it’s fun to have these conversations with you. – Even when I was a Christian,
when I was a Christian, eighth grade I would go to sleep listening to Ravi Zacharias, you know? – Yeah. – And to this day, I go to sleep listening
to debates with like, William Lane Craig, and
like Christopher Hitchens. – Somebody told me I was on
our way, I was like yo I’m- My buddy Lamar who was with me, I’m like “Yo I’m finally having my boy Rufat, like he’s an ex-Christian
rapper turned atheist, we’re gonna do an
interview,” and he’s like, “Yeah man, you need to expose
him to some Ravi Zacharias.” I don’t even know who Ravi Zacharias is. (both laugh) – No, I listen to Ravi
Zacharias, I’ve read his books. He got me into CS Lewis,
you know? But yeah. I’ve heard these arguments. – So, we would agree that it’s
possible that there is a God. It’s possible. We’d agree on that. – Um… I- – I’m not saying you have
to say there is a God, I’m saying, the possibility. – The only way, the
only way that I see it, that there could be a God,
is if there is a deist God. That’s about as far as I’m willing to go. And which is like a thing, which is not much
different from what atheist believe already is like,
a thing, the power, the universe, energy. – We believe- Setting something, you know,
having some type of affect, but like what I mean
by dearest God is like- – I know what you mean by it, yeah, yeah I know what
you mean by a deist god. – Doesn’t interfere with anything, because it doesn’t look to me like God is interfering with anything now. – Can we agree on the fact
that what Jesus taught, and what his heart was
for people was good, was great, it was soft. – Some things, not everything. – What do you feel
like, what Jesus taught, we don’t need to talk
about the Old Testament, what did Jesus taught that you feel like was not helpful for humanity? – Um, I will bring a sword
between Mother and Father. No, was it Mother and Father? Father and Son, Mother and Daughter. You know, like, all of this like End Of Days talk. – You don’t appreciate
the End Of Days talk. – Well, it’s not even an End Of Days talk- – And you don’t appreciate the Hell. You don’t appreciate the Hell talk. – Yeah, It’s terrible. It’s terrible. As Christopher Hitchens put it, it’s like I don’t want
to worship a Kim Jong Un. Do you know what I mean? – (Laughing) – I don’t want to go to
your spiritual North Korea, because that’s what this sounds like. – Yeah, but it can sound
like that if you just pull those things out of context. – If you can so look at a woman with lust, get out of here, Jesus. – You’ve committed adultery in your heart because what he’s saying is if you- Okay, here’s a good example. I did a Bible study on this. – Uh huh. – Christians are rule keepers, right? The religious people,
are rule keepers, right? So just follow me for a second. So Christians is like, yo, you know, “I didn’t commit this sin,
right? I didn’t do this.” The religious people be
like, “I didn’t do this.” And Jesus is like, “Yeah, but if that was
even in your heart, like, you might as well have done it.” And this is what I’ll parallel it to. And I did a Bible study on
this, it’s on the Patreon. Christians are very much like, “No profanity, no cuss words,
no profanity no cuss words.” Unwholesome talk, like no unwholesome talk come
out of your mouth, right? – Mhmm. – And they think that’s
limited it to like, four words, right? F word, S word, the B word, and like if you’re in
Europe, then the C word. (laughs) You know what I’m saying? Like, it’s those four words, right? But that scripture, what those scriptures
are really saying is, you think it’s about language. I’m saying like “nothing unwholesome
come out of your mouth.” But what’s edifying and
encouraging and uplifting. You think the standard is, don’t go put your penis
in somebody else’s wife. I’m saying, if you’re coveting, and you’re envying, and you’re jealous, and your admiring someone
that isn’t your spouse, that you’ve committed
adultery in your heart, that the standard- You say- You’ve heard it said that
do not commit murder, but I’m saying if you hate your brother, if you hate your brother, you’ve committed murder in your heart. Love your enemies, right? Like these are amazing values and virtues that what it does is, it diffuses the ability
to be self righteous and say “Ruphat, I’m a
better person than you cause I don’t cuss and you’re
an atheist and you cuss. I’m a better person than you cause I don’t commit adultery, and you-” You know what I mean? Like, it diffuses that
self righteous spirit, and it says no no no no no, we’re going to level the playing field. Everybody’s a sinner, and
to make the good news is- Everybody’s a sinner, the bad news. The good news is, and
I’ve came to pay atonement for your sins, and to live the
life that you couldn’t live, and die the death that you should’ve died. The way you describe humanity
as has jacked up, as wicked, as terrible, as evil, Jesus
said “You’re right Ruphat, and I did something about it, and I decided to go to the cross, and pay that penalty, because
the wages of sin is death.” (Slight laugh) – Um, how am I going to- – Isn’t that beautiful though? Like isn’t that beautiful?
Isn’t that a beautiful story? – Yeah, and I still
quote certain scriptures. I wear Saint Lazarus around my neck. I think Saint Lazarus is– – He was the man. – Huh? – He was the man. – Yeah. – It was the first to Jesus
brought back from the dead, right? Or no, didn’t he bring back the girl? – Yeah, 4 days and he was smelling. – Yeah, four days and he was like, “Hey bruh Lazarus was back from the dead when he was four days, Jesus was only in the
tomb for three days.” (Both laugh) – Therefore Lazarus, it
might be Lazarus’ joint, you know? Might need to start
worse off than Lazarus.

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